Patricia Tobón Yagarí (PTY): I believe that only time will tell if the Unit has entered into that logic. What I have said is that, in my experience, I faced not just insinuations but direct reproaches of that nature, to which I never yielded. This is an entity that has been politicized and used for clientelism. We have reported acts of corruption, such as those involving the Reparations Fund. We have been accountable and made significant changes, such as not succumbing to political clientelism. While recognizing that the government has political agreements, we did not hand over public resources meant for victims of corruption. This is important to say. Until the last day, I remained consistent with the policy of change announced by the Government of Gustavo Petro and Francia Márquez.

MVJ: What are the possibilities for leaders from ethnic communities to be in power?

PTY: My advice to other leaders is to seek positions of power while maintaining a collective voice. Experience has shown us that an individual, bureaucratic voice that remains silent neither transcends nor brings about significant change. That’s why I firmly believe in the importance of collective character and the need to continue demanding from the state. I come from the indigenous world; I was born and raised in the indigenous movement, and I am a leader with that commitment. For many years, we have been fighting and demanding that numerous officials uphold the rights of our peoples. Now, from the other side, I demand this from the entities. The presence of people who come from this reality in public and political decision-making makes a difference, as we make decisions in favor of those rights. Social movements shouldn’t just keep demanding from the streets while others, without knowing our realities, make decisions from a desk.

MVJ: Is it relevant for ethnic communities to engage with the state?
PTY: It is important for social movements to be part of institutions, not merely to fill bureaucratic positions but to achieve genuine inclusion. While we have had Indigenous or Afro-descendant bureaucrats in positions of power, many have refrained from defending our rights out of fear of losing their jobs. I recognize that this government has shown a willingness to address Indigenous issues, respecting Indigenous leaders who come, not to applaud but to demand political coherence in response to our communities. Upholding this ethical stance has involved internal discussions with other ministries and technical teams, akin to the struggles we faced in the Indigenous movement, but now from positions of leadership.

MVJ: What achievements would you highlight from your tenure?

PTY: At the Unit, we accomplished significant goals in the National Development Plan. Through the Indigenous Concertation Table, we aimed to address claims that indigenous peoples had with this institution for over a decade, which had been denied due to prejudicial decisions, a lack of understanding of the regulations, or institutional racism. For instance, in 2011, the government of Juan Manuel Santos approved decrees for Indigenous, Afro-descendant, and Romani victims that were never implemented. We are working to regulate those provisions as well as the Constitutional Court ruling C-588/19 from 2011.

MVJ: Are there prejudices against officials from ethnic groups?

PTY: I led one of the largest entities for social inclusion and faced skepticism about my ability to deliver results. I remember public comments questioning how an indigenous woman could coordinate such an important policy. I was well-prepared, with experience in various fields and academic degrees in constitutional and international law, in addition to being a commissioner. I met all the requirements. Nevertheless, doubts persisted. However, I earned respect for my leadership by demonstrating that Indigenous peoples can be entrusted with public positions in the country. We are reliable and prepare ourselves adequately when given the opportunity. We lead our own organizational processes and can also serve the country in leadership roles. I came with dignity to show that we can fulfill the tasks that the country needs us to. We must convey the message that indigenous leaders can manage broader areas of public policy, not just specific issues related to ethnic communities.

MVJ: You also represented victims who are not from ethnic groups. How have they felt represented by you?

PTY: The majority of victims are not from ethnic groups, and 80% of the population I serve is non-ethnic. The 600,000 compensation payments made have primarily gone to that population. However, we also needed to fully address ethnic issues, as they were more underserved. We had to resolve some methodological points that had been overlooked, such as the issue of begging among displaced populations, both ethnic and non-ethnic. There are individuals who have ended up homeless or forced into prostitution. These are issues I have addressed at all levels. That’s why we established agreements with municipalities and governors to comply with the National System for Attention and Comprehensive Reparations for Victims. This has been a significant achievement of this government. While we have met investment and compliance targets, the population that has benefited the most has been the non-ethnic one. In the first six months, I found a backlog and we managed to execute over 90%. Last year, we completed the entire execution, and now we rank third in compliance within the Government. Additionally, I earned respect as the head of a team that is predominantly non-ethnic, some of whom held prejudices.

MVJ: Colombia is culturally diverse, but interethnic and intercultural relationships are tense and marked by cultural, ethnic, and economic issues. How can we build a more intercultural and respectful country that honors its diversity?

PTY: The Truth Commission analyzed how sociopolitical violence in Colombia is rooted in ongoing colonial relationships and structural racism, which hinder the development and inclusion of narratives that could change power dynamics. This manifests in the imposition of perspectives that exclude these groups from participating in the formulation of public policies that affect them. The commission highlighted that the colonial past and racism have perpetuated cultural divides. To reverse this, it is essential to implement intercultural policies that acknowledge the history and rights of these Peoples. Without efforts in education, communication, and integration, we will not make progress in intercultural processes. Recommendations were made in the ethnic chapter to help society understand that the country’s development is linked to the development of ethnic groups.

MVJ: What role did the 1991 Constitution play?

PTY: The various moments of advocating for ethnic rights have opened significant avenues. The 1991 Constitution created opportunities. The peace process also enabled people like me to lead institutions like this one. These institutions are expected to facilitate structural transformations to foster interculturality. This involves recognizing the diverse developmental needs of different regions, as well as highlighting the contributions of the Black population and Indigenous peoples to the environment. This was a topic that was previously not addressed. While the discourse is positive, we still face significant challenges in practice.

MVJ: The attacks by armed groups on Indigenous, Afro-Colombian, and peasant communities have caused a collective trauma that weakens the social fabric, customs, and governance structures of these communities.
PTY: We are confronted with a country filled with diverse narratives that fail to comprehend our reality, compounded by a colonial narrative rife with prejudice and polarization. Indigenous people are often labeled as collaborators of the state or guerrillas, which, instead of contextualizing the situation, legitimizes violence and justifies hatred and racist discourse. This normalization and dismissal of violence against indigenous peoples perpetuates their suffering. The violence intensified even further with the armed conflict. In the Truth Commission, we stated that Indigenous peoples have endured a continuum of violence and not only have we failed to recover from the traumas suffered by our grandparents and parents, but we are also facing violence in the present. This has resulted in not just a collective trauma but also the extermination of our cultures and communities, with profound effects on our society.

MVJ: What are the consequences of this collective trauma?

PTY: Although Indigenous resistance strives to overcome these challenges, the damage is disproportionate. There are alarmingly high levels of suicide, family disintegration, and a weakening of our autonomy as Indigenous governments and communities. The violence from drug trafficking groups has co-opted and threatened leadership. In some communities, leaders cannot enter due to the risk of being killed. As a result, community organization and the resolution of issues through self-governance become impossible, as the armed group controls the territory and subjugates the population.

MVJ: Is the Victims Unit and the Government concerned about the impact of these collective traumas on ethnic groups?

PTY: There is a profound misunderstanding of ethnic issues within Colombian society and among many public officials, even within this government. It is essential to contextualize these matters so that institutions can address them appropriately. However, this is a monumental task that goes beyond this government and reveals a historical debt. For example, the situation of the Embera population, engaged in begging, reflects a lack of adequate interventions since the 1970s, when the National Liberation Army (ELN) entered their territories, leading to confrontations and disintegration within their communities. The lack of understanding of these issues has resulted in a reliance on assistance-based measures instead of empowering Indigenous governments to solve their own problems, organize their territories, and promote their own development. Historically, the policies implemented have fragmented communities, creating divisions rather than fostering cohesion. It is crucial for the State to adopt indigenous methodologies that prioritize the genuine well-being of communities, not that of bureaucracies.

MVJ: What perspectives can you share about being a woman in a public position of this caliber?

PTY: I believe that earning respect within the Indigenous movement, where there is significant inequality in women’s participation, taught me how to navigate a male-dominated environment, to gain respect, and lead in a world where Indigenous women often participate but lack power. For the Indigenous movement, it is crucial to enhance the leadership and participation of women. When we strengthen our governance capacity, we send a clear message: it is possible. Today, I demonstrate that Indigenous peoples and women can govern, which also carries ethical responsibilities toward the country and necessitates addressing issues beyond just indigenous and ethnic matters. Maintaining consistency with our historical struggle is essential.

MVJ: And what about your time at the Truth Commission?

PTY: Being part of the Truth Commission as an Indigenous woman and the youngest member exposed me to many prejudices. I was able to work with strength and solid arguments. When I joined the Victims Unit, I carried that experience and strength with me. Here, one confronts the sociocultural expression of machismo in everyday life, something all women face in any position of power. However, I always tried to be mindful of my strength, which can surprise some men. I believe that when one prepares, argues, and demonstrates the power of ideas, prejudices begin to break down. This fosters a re-education of those with whom one interacts.

MVJ: Are there any customs, knowledge, or principles of the Embera people that have helped you?

PTY: Yes. The first principle is that it is always important to think big and be open to listening, considering proposals as opportunities and to build from different points of view rather than seeing them as antagonisms. By doing so, I integrated many visions and transformed participation processes into true spaces of inclusion to develop agendas. Secondly, it is crucial to fulfill the agreements made. It’s not about assuming that one knows everything and decides everything; it’s a collective and participatory construction. This reinforces the commitment to the community’s well-being and the effectiveness of our joint work.

MVJ: Have they had a positive impact on your management?

PTY: These principles and values have not only allowed progress but also strengthened the trust and participation of victims with the unit, restoring lost trust in the State and bringing the State closer to the community. This involves working as we do in Indigenous communities: government to government. This is where the situation of the institutions is truly explained, and the reality of the communities is understood, leading to agreements to establish joint goals. Additionally, we have chosen technical teams composed of social and ethnic leaders, which is a highlight of this entity. The territorial directors are leaders who come from communities that have fought for their rights. This social commitment is fundamental, meaning it’s not just about a paid position but a true commitment to the victims. This ensures greater effort and dedication. Therefore, all those community work methodologies that I have promoted are reflected here in the Unit.

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Esmeralda Arosemena de Troitiño: I would like to begin by highlighting the progress made during these eight years of work. I believe that we have managed to position the Commission on priority issues related to the situation of the most vulnerable sectors of society. Based on the work of the IACHR, the jurisprudence established by the Inter- American Court and the development of the American Convention on Human Rights and its standards, I believe that we have strengthened the Inter-American System. It is crucial to use the tools available to ensure that States comply with their international commitments.

DI: And in the area of Indigenous Peoples?

EAT: Despite the limitations, I believe that we have made progress in clearly identifying the right to ownership of their territories from their own worldview. Although it continues to be a complex issue, this obligation has been discussed among the States. The American Declaration, together with other international instruments, provides us with a solid platform for the protection, guarantees and promotion of respect for Indigenous Peoples. However, there is always a risk of setbacks in the progress achieved and we must be vigilant.

DI: Despite the favorable regulatory framework for Indigenous rights, do you consider that there has been a regression of these rights?

EAT: I would say yes. Within the mandate of the IACHR, the Rapporteurship faces the major challenge of achieving recognition and effective respect for the autonomous decisions of Indigenous Peoples. Although this is recognized in political discourse, even in internal regulations, the transformation of these recognitions is a clear denial of the rights of Indigenous Peoples. In seeking to realize their rights, Indigenous Peoples are faced with a situation of denial, where other interests prevail. In the end, States tend to disassociate development from Indigenous rights. Currently, we are witnessing a frontal struggle between Indigenous Peoples and the States, with cases of criminalization, harassment and deaths of Indigenous leaders. It is a great challenge for the Commission to promote dialogue and to monitor, together with the States, compliance with the norms of the legal instruments, for which they are responsible for their effective enforcement and compliance.

Esmeralda Arosemena de Troitiño in the maximum-security prison of Zacatecoluca (El Salvador) to verify the situation of persons deprived of liberty. Photo: IACHR

Esmeralda Arosemena de Troitiño in the maximum-security prison of Zacatecoluca (El Salvador) to verify the situation of persons deprived of liberty. Photo: IACHR

DI: What is the status of compliance with free, prior and informed consultation?

EAT: The issue of consultation and free, prior and informed consent is fundamental, and several States have completely different conceptions of the meaning and content of this right. As a result, the connection of Indigenous Peoples with their territories is limited in the face of the interests of power groups and the exploitation of resources.

DI: How is the link between States and Indigenous Peoples?

EAT: Rather than ignoring Indigenous rights, States choose not to respect them. That is why the IACHR promotes open, sincere and respectful dialogues between States and Indigenous Peoples. A common problem is that, within some States, there are sectors that make false claims, such as the supposed desire for independence of Indigenous Peoples that would affect State sovereignty. This is absurd and requires an open and respectful dialogue. It is essential that the States fulfill their commitments, and the Commission has tools such as precautionary measures, petitions and cases to support them. The identification of priorities and the development of prioritization criteria are key in this regard. In short, the Commission seeks to pursue a positive agenda with States, firmly identifying the responses they must provide in compliance with their own international norms and obligations. Governments must build on the strengths of their human communities.

DI: What about the power groups outside the State?

EAT: The influence of power groups, such as macro-criminality, which sometimes exceeds the power of the States themselves, only complicates the situation. The militarization of Indigenous territories, the lack of judicial responses to acts of violence against Indigenous leaders, and the need to strengthen democratic institutions and civil society are important challenges.

Esmeralda Arosemena de Troitiño during the Regional Seminar on the Right to Autonomy and Indigenous Justice in Santa Cruz de la Sierra (Bolivia). Photo: IWGIA

Esmeralda Arosemena de Troitiño during the Regional Seminar on the Right to Autonomy and Indigenous Justice in Santa Cruz de la Sierra (Bolivia). Photo: IWGIA

DI: A few weeks before the end of your term, how do you see the future of the Commission?

EAT: It is important that the Commission maintains a sense of institutional cohesion and respect for the institutionality of the IACHR. The members are part of a collective with adopted standards and a clear mission established by the Charter of the Organization of American States (OAS). The observance, defense, promotion and advancement of human rights must be the fundamental purpose of the Commission and its members. The development of thematic reports is a line that should be strengthened, since these documents are valuable for the States to understand the lines to develop specific rights. Reports, such as the one on the Right to Self-Determination and the recent one on Economic, Social, Cultural and Environmental Rights of Indigenous Peoples and Afro- descendants, should be used in dialogues with States to maximize their impact.

DI: What challenges will the Rapporteurship face?

EAT: These eight years have enriched my life in terms of the concept of humanity, the defense and promotion of human rights. The challenge is for Indigenous Peoples to be considered with absolute dignity and integrity of their rights, with a particular focus on non- discrimination for any cause. The focus must be on the most vulnerable sectors, ensuring respect for their dignity and avoiding exclusion, so that the full sense of humanity is preserved.

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